Discussion with Muslims

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1) Me Vs. m4rhum

Jesus Christ Never Said He Was God?

Muslims claim that Jesus never said He was God. However, the biblical evidence shows that this concept is false. This page examines the claims of divinity that Jesus made about Himself.

It is true that Jesus never said, "I am God" directly. However, most of His teachings were done through parables, and not by direct statements. His disciples asked Him why He taught this way. His answer was:

And He answered and said to them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him shall more be given, and he shall have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." (Matthew 13:11-13)

Those who make the claim that Jesus never claimed to be God are blind and deaf to God's word, by their own choices.

Jesus claims to be the Son of Man

Although the title "Son of Man" may seem fairly innocuous, it is, in fact, a title of the Messiah, of whom the book of Daniel claims that all people will serve and that His kingdom would never end:

"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. (Daniel 7:13-14)

Obviously, if the Son of Man were only human, He would not be able to establish an eternal kingdom. Likewise, He would not be able to convince all peoples to serve Him. Such abilities and honors are reserved for God alone.

The Bible makes the direct claim that Jesus is the Son of God. Many others, including the disciples, a Roman Centurian, angels, demons, John the Baptist, Martha, Saul (Paul), and the Ethiopian Eunich make the same claim. Others said that Jesus Himself made the claim to be the Son of God.10 The gospels also indicate that Jesus Himself made the statement or acknowledged that He was the Son of God many times.

Virtually all cults will acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, as if the title confers no special meaning or only second class status. This assumption is unrealistic, since no other prophet ever called himself the Son of God. The Jewish leaders of the time knew exactly what this title implied - that Jesus was claiming to be God Himself:

For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. (John 5:18)

Claiming to be the Son of God also conferred the title of Messiah or the anointed One. Psalms 2 talks about the Messiah (mashiach), whom it says is God's Son. This great messianic Psalm warns the reader to do homage to the Son and take refuge in Him, since He will rule the nations and judge the earth.

Jesus claims to be the Messiah (the Christ)

The Bible says that Jesus is the Christ, or Messiah - the anointed One of God. Jesus Himself made the claim or acknowledged that He was the Messiah. The title is especially significant with regard to the question at hand - is Jesus God? The Old Testament tells us that the Messiah is God and the eternal Father:

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)

Other prophecies of the Old Testament tell us that the Messiah would be God:

"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness. (Jeremiah 23:5-6)

The title, "The LORD Our Righteousness" indicates that the Messiah is God. The Hebrew word translated "LORD" is yhvh (Yahweh), which is the personal name of God.

Jesus claims to have the attributes of God

Jesus claimed to have many of the attributes that God alone possess. Jesus claimed to have sent the prophets:

"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, (Matthew 23:34)

However, the Old Testament indicates that God sent the prophets. Therefore, Jesus was claiming the authority that was previously reserved only for God.

Jesus claimed that His origins are from heaven, whereas men are from the world:

* "And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man. (John 3:13)
* And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. (John 8:23)

Not only did Jesus claim to come from heaven, but He said that it was "my kingdom" Isn't heaven God's kingdom?

* that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Luke 22:30)
* Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." (John 18:36)

Jesus claimed to have existed before He was born in Bethlehem:

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. (John 8:58-59)

The claim included the term "I am" - a reference God made of Himself when talking to Moses. The Jews immediately recognized that Jesus was claiming to be God and attempted to stone Him.

Jesus also claimed to have existed "before the world began":

"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (John 17:5)

This statement is an obvious claim to deity. Not only did Jesus claim to exist before the creation of the universe, but He claimed to share the glory of God! Jesus also claimed that He had "all authority... in heaven and on earth" and that everything of God was His.18

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." (Matthew 28:18)

Jesus claimed to be the supreme judge who will exercise all judgment. However, there are at least 50 verses in the Bible that claim that Jehovah God will judge the earth (see Who Will Judge Mankind?). Jesus claimed to be the one to separate the "sheep from the goats". However, the book of Ezekiel says that Jehovah God will do this.21 Jesus claimed to be the resurrection and the life. He said that He would personally raise everyone from the dead. These are all attributes of God.

Jesus claimed to be Lord of the Sabbath, although the Bible indicates that God held such title.

Jesus claimed the ability to forgive sins. Even the Jews recognized that this was a function of God alone.

Jesus claimed that He would return in the clouds in glory. Isaiah makes the same claim for Jehovah God. Obviously, Jesus was making a claim to deity.

Jesus claimed to be the light of the world who provides salvation. In the Psalms, David tells us that Jehovah God is our light and salvation. Jesus also claimed to be the way to life - an assertion that is made for God. Jesus said that He was the one who searched the hearts and minds, gives eternal life, and rewards those who follow Him. All of these characteristics are found only in God.

Jesus said He was the good shepherd, who searches for His sheep. These are claims made of God in the Old Testament.Jesus claimed to be the fountain of living water. This is a clear reference to what God said of Himself as recorded by the prophet Jeremiah. Jesus said He would give rest to those who found Him. The same claim is made of God in the book of Exodus.

Jesus claimed to send the Holy Spirit (Helper). The same claim is made for God. Jesus said that He raised Himself from the dead, even though the Bible says that God did it. Among Jesus' parting words, He told His disciples to baptize new followers in "the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matthew 28:19-20)

It should be noted that the other two names (Father and Holy Spirit) are names for God. In fact, the text says specifically that they should be baptized in the name (singular), not names, of the three persons mentioned. In order to be one name, they must all represent God. Jesus claimed that His disciples would be unable to do anything of significance without His power. Such a statement is a clear claim of divine power.

"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. (John 15:5)

Jesus accepts the title of God

One of the least favorite exchanges in the Bible from the Muslim's perspective is the one that occurred between Jesus and Thomas after Jesus rose from the dead. Thomas, the ever-skeptical disciple, was unconvinced that Jesus had risen from the dead and wanted to see direct proof. However, when the Lord Jesus appeared to him, his only reaction was "My Lord and my God!"

Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." (John 20:28-29)

What was Jesus' reaction to the title of God? Did Jesus rebuke him for calling Him "God"? No! In fact, Jesus praised Thomas for his belief. And the belief that Thomas exhibited was that Jesus was Lord and God. If Jesus were not God, accepting such a statement for truth would be a grievous sin. Either Jesus is God or He would have to be a sinner!

Jesus claims to be God

Muslims tend to acknowledge that Jesus and God were "one in purpose." However, this is a rather weak claim. Every disciple of Jesus Christ has the goal of being "one in purpose" with God the Father. Even so, Jesus never used the word "purpose" in His claims of oneness with God.

"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)

Obviously, the Jews did not think that this claim of being one with the Father referred to purpose. They knew that He was claiming equality with God, which is why they tried to stone Him. In addition, Jesus said outright that He was Lord and claimed to be the first and the last, an obvious trait reserved for God.

Jesus accepts worship reserved for God alone

Some of the most significant statements Jesus made regarding His deity actually involve an argument from silence - what Jesus did not say. In no less than 12 instances, Jesus was worshipped by various people - the wise men, the disciples, a leper, a synagogue official, a woman of Canaan, Mother of Zebedee's children, a blind man, angels, and everybody in heaven. The Bible clearly indicates that God alone is to be worshipped. Even Jesus proclaimed this to Satan, when he tempted Him and demanded that He worship him. Some members of cults claim that the people who worshipped Jesus did so improperly. There are a number of examples where people attempted to worship the disciples or angels and were warned not to do so by the parties being worshipped. Jehovah's Witnesses claim that Jesus is the archangel Michael. However, the Bible clearly indicates that angels are not to be worshipped. The problem arises that Jesus never told anyone to stop worshipping Him. If Jesus were not God, to say nothing in the face of worship would be a huge sin. So, if Jesus is not God, then He sinned in allowing others to worship Him. If He sinned, then Jesus could not even be the Savior, since the Savior must be without spot or blemish. By claiming that Jesus is not God, Muslims turn Him into a liar and impostor.

Conclusion

Jesus never claimed to be God? It would seem from this large collection of sayings that Jesus made the claim to divinity constantly, in many different ways. Those who claim Jesus never said he was God are not reading his claims with the understanding of the true nature of God, as revealed in the Old and New Testaments. Jesus was constantly giving people advice. One of His favorite sayings is recorded below. It's good advice for those who really want to know Jesus.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Questions for Muslims

Questions for Muslims from CARM website:

Dear Muslim, I do not post these questions as a "proof" that Islam is false. I do not believe that is possible with a simple list of questions. Nevertheless, they are here to encourage discussion that the truth may be known.

1. The Qur'an says "To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward" (Surah 5:9).
   1. Question: Are you doing enough good deeds to receive salvation on the Day of Judgment?
   2. Question: Are you doing all you can or are you relaxing in your dedication to Allah?
2. The Qur'an says, "O ye who believe! Turn unto Allah in sincere repentance! It may be that your Lord will remit from you your evil deeds and bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow, on the day when Allah will not abase the Prophet and those who believe with him. Their light will run before them and on their right hands; they will say: Our Lord! Perfect our light for us, and forgive us! Lo! Thou art Able to do all things," (66:8-9). Notice how it says if you are sincere you may receive forgiveness.
   1. Question: How do you know you are sincere enough to be forgiven of Allah?
   2. Question: Does it give you peace to know that even if you are very sincere that at best, you may receive forgiveness?
   3. Question: If you say that you know you are sincere enough in your repentance before Allah, how do you know you are not deceiving yourself?
   4. Question: Is your heart really good enough to muster enough sincerity before a Holy and Righteous God?
   5. Question: If you say yes, I honestly and humbly ask you, "Are you being prideful?"
   6. Question: If you say you are not being prideful, then are you boasting in your sincerity?
3. In Christianity, Jesus is God in flesh who paid for our sins on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24). Because of that, we Christians are secure in Him and do not have to worry about doing enough good works to please God since we are saved by grace through faith in Him, (Eph. 2:8-9).
   1. Question: Why should we Christians give up our guarantee of salvation in Jesus for the requirements of your Qur'anic law when you yourselves don't even know if you have done enough good deeds to be saved on the Day of Judgment?
4. The Bible says that God is love (1 John 4:16) and that He loves all people (Matt. 5:43-48; John 3:16). The Qur'an never says that "God is love." In fact, the Qur'an says that Allah does not love unbelievers (2:98; 3:32).
   1. Question: If Allah does not love unbelievers, can you say that Allah is love, especially if the Qur'an does not say it?
   2. Question: If you say yes, that Allah is love, then why does he only love the Muslims and not all people?
   3. Question: If you say Allah is love, is he more loving than the God of the Bible who loves all people?
5. In the Bible, Jesus said in John 15:13, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." In Christianity, the greatest act of love is performed by God Himself -- since Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14; Col. 2:9). Jesus is the one who fulfilled His own words on this. He laid His life down for us.
   1. Question: What is the greatest act of love performed by Allah?
   2. Question: If what Jesus said is true, then hasn't someone besides Allah performed the greatest act of love?
   3. Question: Why do you, as a Muslim, want me to give up such a great love performed by God Himself (from a Christian perspective) for your belief in Allah who only loves people if they are Muslims?
6. Islam teaches that the Holy Spirit is Gabriel. In the Bible, the Holy Spirit lives in the Christians.
   1. Question: If the angel Gabriel is the Holy Spirit, how can he dwell in us? (Note: According to the Nestle Aland Greek New Testament Textual Apparatus, there are no textual variations any of the following biblical references. They are recorded and transmitted to us accurately.)
      1. "Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you," (2 Tim. 1:14, NASB).
      2. "Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" (1 Cor. 3:16, NASB).
7. Lying is okay?
   1. Question: Was Muhammad wrong for advocating lying? Is Lying okay? "Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him [Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf]?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it," (Hadith Vol. 5, Book 59, #369).
   2. Question: Who is more holy, Allah or Yahweh?
   3. In the above quote from the hadith, Muhammad advocated lying. The Christian God would never approve of lying. Does the god of Islam approve of lying? If not, then wasn't Muhammad wrong? If he was not wrong, then Allah approves of lying. Which God is more holy? The God of Christianity is far more holy.

Does Islam improve on Christianity?

Does Muhammad fulfill and complete the mission and ministry of Christ? Muhammad answers with an emphatic yes.

Basic Islamic theology teaches that since Allah sent Gabriel down with the Quran to Muhammad the messenger of Allah, Muhammad and the Quran fulfill and complete the mission of Christ and the New Testament. Muhammad seems to recognize the value of the Bible (Suras 4:47; 4:136; 4:163; 5:44—48; 5:82—83; 6:92, 154), but ultimately Christianity and the New Testament must yield to Islam and the Quran, the new and superior revelation.

Sura (Chapter) 5:15—16 illustrates Muhammad's viewpoint. In the context of Muhammad's distortion of the Christian doctrine of the Sonship of Christ (v. 17), and in the context of his asserting that Jews have been cursed (v. 13), this passage in the Quran (representing others) says that Christians (and Jews) have been walking in darkness until Muhammad came:

5:15 People of the Book [Jews and Christians] . . . a light has now come to you from God, and a Scripture [the Quran] making things clear, 16 with which God guides them who follow what pleases Him to ways of peace, bringing them from darkness out into light, by His will, and guiding them to a straight path. (Haleem) (cf. 4:157)

A Bible—educated Christian today immediately recognizes the imagery of light. Jesus says that he was sent down from heaven as the light of the world, and Christians have passed from darkness into the light (John 1:4—5, 8:12, 9:5, 12:46; 1 Peter 2:9). Now, however, Muhammad claims that Christians had been living in darkness, and he has come to clarify matters for them, as if things had been muddied. The Quran offers guidance along a "straight path," a theme often repeated in the Muslim Scriptures (e.g. Sura 1) and makes "things clear." Verse 16 is likely one of the verses a Muslim has in mind when he points out that Islam is a religion of peace. But is it?

A devout, Bible—educated Christian in no way believes that Islam is superior, so how do we break this deadlock? Ignore it? Given recent events like 9/11, this is no longer feasible. Do we pretend that all religions are the same? But this forces us to deny some basic, non—negotiable doctrines that all religions have and that cannot be reconciled. So do we argue over these abstract doctrines?

Debating abstract ideas like the Unity or the Trinity of God has a place in the Christian—Muslim dialogue, but neither claim can be proven by simple observation. The Quran everywhere affirms the strict Unity of God, whereas the New Testament everywhere affirms the divinity of Christ and the personhood of the Holy Spirit. So we have merely pitted one sacred text against another, and to break this deadlock we must go down still other paths. (For more information on the reliability of the New Testament, visit this site; for the problems inhering in the Quran, go here.)

Since Muhammad lays down a serious challenge to Christ and Christianity, we Christians must answer him. What would Christ say? As it turns out, he has given us a clear teaching on how to evaluate a prophet who comes after him in history, especially if the later prophet asserts his superiority over Christ: call it fruit inspection.

In the context of the Sermon on the Mount, Christ spoke to the multitudes, few of whom or none of whom were theologians, but simple agrarians. In Matt. 7:15—20, Christ uses unambiguous language about discerning the truthfulness of prophets:

7:15 Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you shall know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you shall know them.

In today's western world in which millions would prefer to not rock the boat with Islam but to accommodate it, this passage may stand out as intolerant. But in these verses Christ understands the stakes. Religious truth—claims come into the world by the dozens, seemingly every second, and these claims are not abstract; the lives of people are at risk. So the price of accommodation, especially since 9/11, is too high.

Besides, it is Muhammad who says that he is superior to Christ and that his new religion improves on Christianity. He is the one who issued the challenge in the first place. Therefore, 600+ years before Muhammad came on the world stage, Christ answers him and numerous self—described prophets who stalked the Mediterranean world with a fruit inspection.

To illustrate, let us suppose that I claim that my way is better than yours. Then I should be able to back up my verbal assertion with my actions in obvious ways. My behavior should actually be better than yours, for my actions speak louder than my words. Specifically, if I as the founder of a religion say that husbands in my community are allowed to beat their wives (Sura 4:34), but you as the founder of a religion say that husbands in your community are not allowed to beat their wives, then how can my alleged superiority stand up in real life? I am promoting an empirically bad practice, but you are not.

I simply do not pass fruit inspection. That is, my fruit or behavior or down—to—earth practices are rotten. Therefore, Christ is absolutely correct to use this simple test for his followers to examine the claims of later prophets. "By their fruit you shall know them" (Matt. 7:16)

We can boil down Muhammad's challenge and Christ's fruit inspection in a simple if—then logical argument. This one is known as modus tollens or denying the consequent (the "then" clause).

(1) If A, then B. If Islam improves on Christianity, then these improvements should show up in observable, down—to—earth ways.

(2) Not—B. But these improvements do not show up in observable, down—to—earth ways.

(3) Therefore, not—A. Therefore, Islam does not improve on Christianity.

We now easily defend each premise.

(1) If Islam improves on Christianity, then these improvements should show up in observable, down—to—earth ways.

We have already defended this premise in our lead—up to it. Examining the life and practices of the Founder of Christianity and the Founder of Islam is the first and best way to break the deadlock between the two competing religions, because we can observe their behavior and actions down here on earth. By their fruits we shall know them.

(2) But these improvements do not show up in observable, down—to—earth ways.

Defending this premise with hard evidence answers most clearly the challenge that Muhammad levels against Christ and demonstrates beyond any doubt that Muhammad's fruit is bad, whereas Christ's fruit is indeed healthy and ripe.

The following list has already been developed in this article, which is actually the basis for the article now. If the reader believes that these actual practices in Muhammad's life and the following verses in the Quran are taken out of context or out of thin air, then he or she should go to the link, and then, once there, he or she should go to the further links provided under each point. These dubious practices actually happened in Muhammad's community, and Muhammad in his Quran actually orders these atrocities. Also, to see the Quranic verses in multiple translations, the reader should go here and type in the references, like so: 24:2 (24 is the sura or chapter, and 2 is the verse). Ignore the request for transliterated Arabic chapter titles, and just type in the numbers.

*Muhammad nicknames his weapons, and he nicknames himself "the obliterator."

Christ never owned weapons because he never waged war on people.

*Muhammad in his Quran commands that adulterers and adulteresses should receive a hundred lashes (Sura 24:2). Reliable hadiths (Muhammad's words and deeds outside of the Quran) command stoning them.

Christ forgave the woman caught in adultery. The men who had gathered around to stone her dropped their rocks and left. She stayed, weeping, until Christ told her to go and sin no more (John 8:1—11).

*Muhammad in his Quran permits husbands to beat their wives (Sura 4:34).

Neither Christ nor the New Testament authors permit this or practiced this.

*Muhammad in his Quran commands that the hands of male or female thieves should be cut off (Sura 5:38).

Christ never said to do this. In fact, the Apostle Paul said that thieves should work with their hands, not get them cut off in order to share with those in need (Ephesians 4:28). In this matter (and in many others) Paul excels Muhammad.

*Muhammad assassinates poets and poetesses and political enemies.

Christ never assassinates any of his enemies and certainly not poets (even bad ones).

*Muhammad in his Quran commands death or the cutting off of hands and feet for fighting and corrupting the land (Sura 5:33).

Christ the Prince of Peace dies for the sins of the world, so that "corruption" and the "fighting" would stop.

*Muhammad marries a prepubescent girl, Aisha, and consummates his marriage with her while she is still only a girl. For more evidence on this most outlandish of Muhammad's domestic acts even for Seventh Century Arabia, readers should refer to this article. The Quran itself allows such unjust marriages for other Muslims, as well (Sura 65:4).

Christ never did this, and he never said to do this.

*Muhammad in his Quran promises sensuous, "virgin—rich" Gardens for martyrs dying in a military holy war (Suras 44:51—56, 52:17—29, 55:46—78, 61:10, 4:74, 9:111).

Christ's "Martyrdom" on the cross means that Christians do not have to die in a holy war to be guaranteed heaven. They need only trust in him.

*Muhammad unjustly executes around 600 male Jews and enslaves the women and children. This atrocity is celebrated in his Quran (Sura 33:25—27)

Christ was a Jew and loves his own people. Moreover, he loves the whole world——even the polytheists whom Muhammad slaughters——and redeems it by his death, burial, and Resurrection. He was not sent to slaughter people.

*Muhammad launches his own military Crusade in AD 630 with 30,000 jihadists against the Byzantines (who never showed up) (Sura 9:29).
Christ never did this. What Medieval Europeans do in his name is not foundational to Christianity. Only Christ and the New Testament are, and they did not endorse a military holy war. Muhammad, on the other hand, is foundational to Islam, and he did launch his Crusades against Byzantines Christians, and he does endorse and go out on many military holy wars.

Sura 5:16, quoted in the introduction to this article, asserts that Islam is the religion of peace. This list, however, flatly contradicts this mere verbal assertion. Actions speak louder than words. Islam is therefore not the religion of peace.

To repeat, if the reader believes that these points are taken out of context or thin air, he or she may click on that link and then on the links provided under each point.

Christians shall know prophets by their fruit. Bluntly stated, Muhammad, the self—described human messenger and prophet (Sura 3:144), clearly fails the down—to—earth fruit inspection. On the other hand, Christ the Son of God (Matt. 3:16—17) passes it with a perfect score.

(3) Therefore, Islam does not improve on Christianity.

This conclusion follows naturally and logically.

For fair—minded and reasonable people, practical matters like wife—beating and whipping adulterers and marrying prepubescent children are decisive. Actions and down—to—earth policies cannot be explained away, unless some people are willfully blind and refuse to see how obviously wrong it is do these things, or unless a prophet has a large army behind him to force his practices on the "inferior" followers of an "incomplete" earlier religion.

And this brings us back to abstract doctrines, again using myself and the reader as examples. Before we discuss non—empirical doctrines like the nature of God, as the founder of a new religion I must pass fruit inspection. Let us suppose that it is my practice to kill polytheists in bloody battles, instead of converting them only by preaching or instead of letting them live if they refuse to convert (Sura 9:4—5). On the other hand, it is your practice not to kill polytheists, but to convert them by preaching only and to let them live if they refuse to convert. Under these conditions, I fail a down—to—earth, observable fruit inspection, but you pass it. Hence, I lose my right to be taken seriously in my claims about the nature of God and other abstract doctrines that cannot be observed. It is clear that I serve either myself, or worse——a lesser god. You, on the other hand, have sound practical ideas, so you deserve a fair hearing.

In the same way, Muhammad's failure in his challenge to Christ can be stated in another if—then argument, this time in modus ponens or affirming the antecedent (the "if" clause).

(4) If A, then B. If Islam does not improve on Christianity in observable, down—to—earth ways, then it likely does not improve on Christianity in abstract, theoretical matters.

(5) A is affirmed. Islam does not improve on Christianity in observable, down to earth ways.

(6) B is affirmed. Therefore, it likely does not improve on Christianity in abstract, theoretical matters.

The first two premises are also easily defended.

(4) If Islam does not improve on Christianity in down—to—earth, observable ways, then it likely does not improve on Christianity in abstract, theoretical matters.

Muhammad embodies Islam, for he was the conduit through which Allah reveals the superior religion, so we again use him to test Islam. Fruit inspection says that if a prophet fails it, then his more abstract claims are suspect. In a secular context, this test is too high, for all humans are flawed. A physicist is allowed to discuss abstract matters about space and time, even though his personal life may be confused and even sinful. But in a religious context, especially when one religious leader (Muhammad) asserts that he is better than another leader (Christ), this test is essential and indispensable.

Furthermore, factual data confirm Muhammad's failure in abstract ideas. For example, it is a verifiable fact that the New Testament is reliable, whereas the Quran has its share of problems. (For more information on this topic, refer to these pages here and here). It is also a verifiable fact that Muhammad was not trained in high—minded matters. He simply picked up a hodge—podge of ideas that circulated over the trade routes and inserted them into his Quran (like the absurd non—death of Christ on the cross in Sura 4:157), claiming divine revelation from Allah. Hence, in clear and obvious ways he is not a reformer of Christianity (and Judaism), but a deformer of the two earlier religions. Therefore, historical facts confirm that he is likely wrong in theoretical doctrines——he does not know what he is talking about.

(5) Islam does not improve on Christianity in observable, down—to—earth ways.

After reading the list under premise two, any rational and intellectually honest seeker whose mind has not been clouded by a lifetime of devotion to Islam must reach the conclusion that Muhammad fails fruit inspection in practical, observable, and down—to—earth ways.

(6) Therefore, it likely does not improve on Christianity in abstract, theoretical matters.

This conclusion also follows naturally and logically.

Based on the list of wide differences between Christ and Muhammad under premise two, why would fair—minded and reasonable persons listen to Muhammad's high—minded and merely verbal doctrines that deny the Trinity or the divinity of Christ (Suras 2:116, 6:101, and 4:171, 5:73) or that conveniently support the inerrancy of the Quran (unless he has a large army behind him)? Reasonable and fair—minded fruit inspectors may rightfully conclude that his inspired Book is suspect because of his dubious life and because it is filled with unjust practices. In fact, open—minded people have the right to prefer Christ's factually kinder but allegedly "erroneous" Book, any day and every day, over and above Muhammad's allegedly "inerrant" but factually extremist Scripture. Muhammad must first show us his exemplary life before he is allowed to preach about high—minded theology or before we take seriously his revelations about abstractions.

For average Christians, then, especially the original followers whom Jesus was addressing in the Sermon on the Mount in First Century agrarian Israel, Christ says that by a prophet's fruit Christ's followers shall know the prophet. Once a prophet's fruit goes bad, or it starts off growing on a bad tree, then they do not need to inspect his abstract claims. He becomes a false prophet——strong language to be sure, but those words are Christ's (Matt. 7:15).

Three Questions
Does this failure to pass fruit inspection shut down all dialogue? If Christian and Muslim theologians in a conference room want to debate the Trinity, then they are free to do so——though how far they would get is doubtful. Their discussion is merely academic. However, they should not expect millions upon millions of Bible—educated Christians worldwide to feel compelled to debate such ideas. But even if they want to discuss abstract theology, then they are also free to do so. Muslims must not be surprised, though, if these Christians do not take Muhammad and his revelations seriously in the final analysis because Christ already told his followers what to look for: good fruit (Matt. 7:15—20). Muhammad lived a questionable life, which gets enshrined into his not—so—eternal and not—so—inerrant Quran, so Christians are allowed to doubt the Quran on theoretical matters.

Is the connection between practical matters and theoretical matters iron—clad? Christ in Matt. 7:15—20 implies that the connection is indeed real and iron—clad. To repeat, if Muhammad was wrong about practical matters like beating wives, whipping adulterers, launching military Crusades, assassinating poets and enemies, and promising his jihadists virgin—rich Gardens if they die in a military holy war, then why would Christians listen to Muhammad on theoretical matters, especially since the New Testament everywhere affirms, for example, the divinity of Christ and the personhood of the Holy Spirit? Even more important, why would Christians wish to convert to Islam, given Muhammad's dubious track record?

Are there no positive qualities (fruit) about Muhammad? Even the worst failure of a fruit inspection may have at least a few good qualities. A founder of a movement must show some degree of kindness if he wants his community to survive. But the good qualities do not lash out and harm people. The bad traits do, however. The overall picture of Muhammad's life in Medina (622—632) shows him waging war on polytheists (he conquers Mecca); on Jews (he banishes and kills them); and on Christians (he launches a Crusade). In the ten years that he lived there, he goes out on, sends out, or launches seventy—four raids, expeditions, or full—scale wars, ranging from peaceful negotiations (very few compared to violent raids), to assassination hit squads, to the conquest of Mecca with 10,000 jihadists, to a Crusade with 30,000 jihadists against the Byzantines (who never showed up). No one can whitewash this dark picture, which darkens his positive qualities.

Therefore, Muhammad does not complete and fulfill the mission and ministry of Christ——far from it, for Christ came into the world expressing the love of God. Factually, Muhammad and Islam are bad versions Christ and Christianity, and the Quran is empirically worse than the New Testament.

Does Islam improve on Christianity? Given the hard evidence, the answer is an emphatic no. Muhammad clearly fails to pass a simple fruit inspection.

Reform Islam?

Is this even possible? Well some seem to think so. And these "some" are not Christians, Jews or people from other faiths but Muslims themselves. I came across this website which urges Muslims to make "adjustments" to their religious texts, practices and thinking.

http://www.reformislam.org/

Check them out and comment on what you think.

We don't need any Laws!

Well we do... but often times I get asked this question by Muslims that why don't you follow the law that was given to Moses? If God gave us those laws then why would you conveniently erase those laws? Well, in my reading of the Bible I came across Galatians 3 it was quite self-explanatory. I was initially going to post certain quotes from this amazing chapter but I think it would be prudent if I post the entire chapter so no one has to go refer to the rest in the Bible. I will however high-light some of the passages from it.

Galatians 3

Faith or Observance of the Law

1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."^[a] 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."^[b] 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."^[c] 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."^[d] 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."^[e] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."^[f] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

The Law and the Promise

15Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed,"^[g] meaning one person, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ^[h] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Sons of God

26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1. Galatians 3:6 Gen. 15:6
2. Galatians 3:8 Gen. 12:3; 18:18; 22:18
3. Galatians 3:10 Deut. 27:26
4. Galatians 3:11 Hab. 2:4
5. Galatians 3:12 Lev. 18:5
6. Galatians 3:13 Deut. 21:23
7. Galatians 3:16 Gen. 12:7; 13:15; 24:7
8. Galatians 3:24 Or charge until Christ came

If you are still confused about the Laws and their relevance to us now then post a message and I will do my best to explain.

Me and King

Please read this , I typed all that, i hope you read it

"I said things that I see them as I find them, " so now you should agree with me since you take things as you see them

1) The verse he quoted, jesus one of his disciple philip asked him: " Lord, show us the Father" and Jesus said:" since i've been among you, don't you know me. anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."

considering how you look at things you are saying father and jesus are the same person ( contridicts number 1)

2) 1st verse of John 14, jesus says : " Trust in God; trust also in me", There are 2 different persons.
contridicts with number 1

3) 1 John 4.12
12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

no man hath seen god , very clear if we take it as it was said right
again contridicts with number 1

4) john 6.45,46

45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

so are all the ones who have seen jesus from god????


so how can you say
" I am sorry King, but it is you who are delusional"
if you have not studied your own bible??

also "I said things that I see them as I find them, not what have been passed on from scholars and priests, which obviously is the case for you."
The bible is not meant to just be read and taken as what you say, you study it as a whole and not just pick what you want out of it , because if you do that it will contridict each other as i have shown you


John 20.17:
" do not hold on to me, go instead to my brothers, my disciples and tell them, I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."


what does that mean?????

For example Jesus clearly says to Mary from Magdala in John 20.17:
" do not hold on to me, go instead to my brothers, my disciples and tell them, I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

And the verse 1 John 5.20
It doesn't give to Jesus the right to divinity
verse says this " we know that the Son of God has come, to give us the knowledge of the truth, and we are in the truth in his Son Jesus christ He is the true God and the eternal life

What does that mean?

Pay attention now

if you take this verse in a litteral meaning,
you will directly contredict with the words of jesus himself in John 17.3 where he says addressing to god " The eternal Life is for them to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Jesus is saying about God that he is the true god and that he is just a messenger of God

Didn't he say that he was the way?
no one goes to The Father, who does not go through him

He is the way not the destination,
Way to the airport isn't the airport
isn't that right?

People are just victim of the system created by the catholic church, the " christocentrism".
Meaning we have to interput the bible int he light of Jesus


I suggest you study the bible and not just read it

Peace to you