Hello and I apologize for this late reply. Thanks for replying to my message and I must admit, I’m completely lost when it comes to the trinity. I don’t know much about it beyond ‘Jesus is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit’, even then I don’t understand the point of describing God in that way. I mean, why not say Jesus is God, God is one, and be done with it? Why split God into three stages or manifestations? If for example, a Christian disregards the concept of the trinity but still believes in Jesus as his savior/ messiah/ God, is that considered blasphemy? Did Jesus himself specifically tell his followers to see him as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? Most importantly, what is the significance of the trinity? These are some of the things that I have no understanding on so I hope you can clear these up for me.
Looking back at the verses Surah 4:172 Surah 19:33, and a few others, nowhere in the Qur’an did it say that Jesus is God or anything along those lines nor was it being contradicting about the nature of Jesus.
Surah 4:171,172
O people of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an Apostle of Allah and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Apostles. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One Allah: glory be to him: (for Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. Christ disdaineth not to serve and worship Allah nor do the angels those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant He will gather them all together unto himself to (answer).
Surah 19:30-34
He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; "And He hath made me Blessed wheresoever I be and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; "(He) hath made me kind to my mother and not overbearing or miserable; "So Peace is on me the day I was born the day that I die and the Day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"! Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth about which they (vainly) dispute.
It was repeated over and over again that Jesus was the savior for the Jews and to guide them back to the teachings of Moses, but yet we are constantly reminded that Jesus was just a human messenger. Granted, he was no ordinary human because he had the power of miracles, but then, so did Elijah, Moses and even Muhammad.
I read an article on how Jesus Christ died, and at the last paragraph it stated “Jesus remained in this agony and shame, not because he was powerless, but because of his incredible love for humanity. He suffered to provide the needed way of salvation for you and me.” My question is why? Why suffer for the sins of humanity? He is God; he is the Creator of everything, then why should he suffer for the things he created? Isn’t God omniscient? Dying on the cross for his followers to me, is a bit like admitting that he made a mistake or something. With that in mind, who is the servant of whom, really?
At least with Islam, I can accept the crucifixion, partly because that Jesus was human and mostly because the Qur’an has a different view on the crucifixion.
Surah 4:157, 158
That they said (in boast) "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary the Apostle of Allah"; but they killed him not nor crucified him but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no (certain) knowledge but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not. Nay Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power Wise.
This account makes much more sense because it states that Jesus didn’t die; he was raised to God and in his place was a man that looked just like him. You could say that right now, Jesus is still alive and it certainly correlates with another verse about his return to the earth for one last time.
Even if Jesus did say that he is the Alpha and the Omega, it still doesn’t prove that he is God. To me, it actually proved the opposite. Saying that he is the beginning and the end means that he is finite. If he is the beginning then there must be a catalyst to that beginning; another god perhaps or a creator much superior to Jesus, and does God has an end? IMO, God has no beginning and no ending.
As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, ‘Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.’" Mark 10:17-18
Again, if Jesus and God are one and the same, why did Jesus said ‘No one is good except God alone’? The words ‘No one’ and ‘except God alone’ I think, indicates that Jesus never called himself God. In the beginning at least. I might be taking this out of context though, so please correct me if I’m wrong.
Thank you very much for taking the time to read this. I’m not an expert in Christianity and most of what I write here are based on the little that I know on the religion, so I hope you don’t feel offended.
Thanks again and have a good day.
-Coroven
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Hi Coroven,
I don't blame for not understanding the Holy Trinity. You are taught that this means "there are three persons" and Christians in essence praying to 3 Gods which ofcourse is a blasphemy in Quran, so I can see why this could be confusing.
The explanation of the Trinity is so simple that most people miss it.
* If God, Jesus, and the Holy spirit were the same, they would not have different names.
* If they were the same, they would not appear separately as they do in Matthew 3:16,17.
* In spite of being different, they are “one.” (John 10:30)
So we understand that the three “members” of the Trinity are different, but have the same purpose
God is described as “one” in Deuteronomy 6:4, 1 Kings 8:60, Isaiah 44:8 and numerous other passages. For example, Deuteronomy 6:4 says Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!” The word for “one” is the Hebrew word ‘echad. (This Old Testament text was originally written in Hebrew). This is the same Hebrew word that is used for “one” in Genesis 2:24—Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
In case you haven’t noticed smile when a man and woman are married they do not melt into one human being, becoming some sort of hybrid. Yet, they do become “one.” We could cite other examples, but I have made my point.
Genesis 1:26, Genesis 3:22, Genesis 11:7, Isaiah 6:8, and other passages are examples of conversations within which God uses the word “we” or “us.” However, God is not referring to any others (people, angels, etc.) in these verses. Since God is having a conversation, the “we” and “us” must therefore refer to the Trinity. You might say that God speaks to Himself in the plural form.
Matthew 28:16-20 is a passage referred to as “The Great Commission.” In verse 19, Jesus states, “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”
Why did Jesus tell his eleven disciples to baptize people in the names of all three members of the Trinity? Why not one or two? It is obvious from this passage that the entire Trinity is God.
I understand that many people agree that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit exist. (I am sure that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are relieved to hear that! :) ) These same people may even agree that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are “working together.” However, the followers of Islam are taught that Jesus is “just a prophet,” or “only the son of God”—not God. This wrong viewpoint is easily clarified by looking at two Bible verses: Isaiah 9:6, and Isaiah 43:12.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God [0410],Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 43:12
I have declared and saved,
I have proclaimed,
And there was no foreign god among you;Therefore you are My witnesses,
Says the LORD [03068], that I am God [0410].
Notice the numbers in brackets that I placed in the text. Those numbers indicate the “Strong’s Numbers” of those particular words. Strong’s Numbers are index numbers in a document called a “Strong’s Concordance” that allow someone who only reads English to understand what the Bible’s original Hebrew words are. For example, the number [03068] refers to the Hebrew word YHWH. This word is usually written in English as LORD, Jehovah, or (phonetically) Y@hovah. Similarly, the number [0410] refers to the Hebrew word ‘el, which is normally written in English as God.
It has been thoroughly proven that Isaiah 9:6 is a Messianic Prophecy referring to Jesus Christ. Notice how Isaiah 43:12 clearly shows that God (YHWH) refers to himself as God (‘El)—the exact same term (‘El) used to refer to Jesus. There are numerous other examples, but I will not belabor the point. It is obvious that God and Jesus are both God.
As an aside in Isaiah 7:14 the prophecy is undeniably is about Jesus Christ and what does the angel call him "Immanuel" which means "God is with us"
In addition to this Jesus did only what only God can do. You said Jesus was no ordinary man just like Moses, Elijah and Muhammad. Actually, I am not sure if you can compare Jesus to Muhammad and I am not sure if Muhammad did any miracles.
Mark chapter 2 opens up with an interesting story about Jesus healing a paralytic man. Notice that Jesus forgives the man’s sins in verse 5 and the reaction of the teachers of the law (the religious experts of the day) in verses 6 and 7. Jesus not only cured the paralytic man from his bodily aliments but also FORGAVE his SINS. I don't recall any other prophet you mentioned having the power to forgive. Muhammad had to refer to Allah or Torah for judgments. Jesus didn't confer with anyone on forgiving, but forgave people their sins. "10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"
The teachers of the law knew that only God could forgive sin. Since the people could not “see” sin being forgiven, Jesus proved He did indeed forgive the man’s sins by supernaturally healing the man’s paralysis (providing visible proof everyone could see). You can also read about this event in Luke 5:17-26. In both cases it is obvious that Jesus is God.
In Luke 22:70 and John 8:58, Jesus answers questions put to him by the Pharisees that declare Himself to be on “God’s level.” Notice how Jesus answered their questions by saying “I am.” (Ego eimi in Greek.) Ego eimi is not a translation of YHWH, but it is similar to our translating YHWH into “I AM” in English. This choice of words was not lost on the Jewish audience He was talking to! They immediately wanted to kill Jesus for blasphemy. That is, the Jews believed that by comparing Himself to God in that way, that Jesus deserved death. They clearly understood the implication Jesus was making—that He was the same as God. I hope that makes sense to you also.
For the crucifixion you said that the fake crucifixion mentioned in the Quran makes more sense to you. In front of many eye witnesses, Roman guards, the Governor, the pharisees, not to mention Mary, "Allah" some how exchanged the Jesus with some one else (perhaps Judas) and fooled everyone?
You do have a very good question Coroven, "Why suffer for the sins of humanity?" The day you figure this out you can call yourself Christian and there will be nothing in this world stopping you from being in God's presence. I will try an elaborate on your question later. But for now I hope I have given you something to think about.
Regarding Mark 10:17-18
Many Muslims read this response as if Jesus says the following two things:
1. Only God deserves to be called good. It is not proper to call anyone else "good" except God.
2. Jesus denies to be God by saying "do not call me good".
Jesus never actually denied his divinity - he just directed a question at the young man and challenged him to think about what he was REALLY saying about Jesus]. Jesus asks a question (WHY...?), he does not deny it was correct or improper to call him good. It is therefore established that 2. is not correct.
Since many Muslims seem not to be satisfied with this explanation, here is another thought/explanation.
Let us now take a closer look at the first part of the above listed interpretation of Jesus' response. If 1. above is correct, what would the implication be if Jesus then calls himself good? Would that not be a claim to deity, after he has established that it is improper to call good anybody except God?
In chapters 6-12 in the Gospel according to John is reported conflict after conflict between Jesus and the religious authorities of his day about the issue of the identity and authority of Jesus.
In the central passage of chapter 10, Jesus makes the statement:
I am the good shepherd. (John 10:14)
This establishes his claim to deity in a double way. First, because of the criterion above, since he calls himself good, and this not only in a general way as "a good shepherd" (one of many) but as "the good shepherd".
If you read further into this chapter it's quite profound in two ways 1) Jesus gives tells him how he can inherit the eternal life and 2) he's telling him the way to do it. "21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, FOLLOW ME."" This answer of Jesus cuts right through to the core of his problem. He was rich and his wealth and the security that comes with wealth was too important for him to give up. He wanted eternal life, and he would have made great efforts to do many good deeds with his wealth and his abilities, no question about that. But giving it up completely? Trusting ONLY God and having his security in God only? This was too much for him. He did get the answer that he needed. But it was also the answer that exposed his true heart. His wealth and position was more important than God. And he went away sad. At another time Jesus said: You cannot serve two masters. Either God or money. And Jesus' command revealed that though this man had kept all the "outward commandments of behavior", he was guilty of breaking the first commandment "I am the Lord your God, you shall have NO other gods before me". Nothing is allowed to take priority over God. For him it was money, security, position, ...
Jesus peels away the man's attempt to 'manipulate' in his favor. And he says to him, "don't use divine attributes for me IF you are not willing to follow what I am going to tell you". Jesus does then make this clear by showing him WHO [what] really is his 'god'. Jesus with this question "WHY do you call me good -- only God is good" and his exposure of the man's true heart makes clear that this statement has to be read as "Only call me "good" [meaning: (from) God], if you are prepared to fully submit to what I will tell you".
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